PreviousNext…

On Notes 8 mail

A brief note on the issues with printing in Notes 8 that have been taken as yet another slur on Notes 8…

Re the comments to John’s post especially, end users don’t give a rat’s arse whether their mail client does activities or talks to “enterprise” servers (at least, not until they need to connect them to these things, as harried corporate admins and developers the world over are all too aware).

What they do care about is whether their client works as they’d expect. This is why we get so much bitching about Notes, despite you, me and everyone’s mother telling these people that Notes is so much more than email.

This is clearly the tack Volker is taking with his posts on Notes 8*. This is a client that has been trumpeted as the panacea for all woes brought by over fifteen years of Notes client cruft. Of course there will be issues. Now, we could turn this into Yet Another Whinge about vowe, or we could at least consider that the views of people who don’t use Notes every day count just as much as yours or mine. The success of the new Eclipse-based technologies all hinge on mindshare. If new users coming to the fold still don’t like it / get it, then we’re sunk.

Yes, I think vowe has tended to focus on the downside of Notes 8 to the exclusion of the “pluses” but no-one seems to get that we need this: there’s plenty of positive press out there already. Time to balance up. If we don’t keep hammering on at IBM / Lotus, then the niggles don’t get addressed. I just don’t see why this hammering has to happen in design forums and the like. For many of us, if we come across something in technology that we don’t like (hallo Redmond), we tend to post about it on our sites; I fail to understand why the new version of Notes should be treated differently. Betas, yes. Gold versions? No.

* well, that and the fact that I reckon Volker’s an imp who likes to watch Notes Apologists rise up to try and give him a good bashing ;-)

Comments

  1. A corrida is nothing without a raging bull. Where is that red cloth again? :-)Volker Weber#
  2. I'm confused, Ben.

    How is this a response to the comments on JOHN's site? What does this have to do with printing? Is it difficult to do this? http://www.lotus911.com/nathan/escape.nsf/Images/NTFN-76HMTY/$File/LikeAppleMail.pngNathan T. Freeman#
  3. Ben,

    I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for saying whats on your mind. Bruce#
  4. Just think what could have been done with this kind of feedback during public beta over the last 5+ months. (Answer: A lot more than can be done now, except generate animosity)Ed Brill#
  5. Nathan, oops, wrong (although related) link. I was thinking of this:

    http://vowe.net/archives/008766.html

    Which isn't that confusing really ;-) Ben Poole#
  6. It is if, like, me, you don't read vowe.net.

    And are you trying to address John's post, or the COMMENTS on John's post? Because I constitute 50% of those comments, the bulk which is agreement with Volker's point about complexity. (Points I was making two years ago, in fact.)

    So I remain thoroughly confused.Nathan T. Freeman#
  7. Ben - I, like Nathan, am confused at what exactly you are pointing out.

    But, based on comments with others, let me make it clear that I think it is perfectly OK to be critical of things in Notes 8. Now, Volker's comments about Notes 8 vs Apple Mail … I disagree. But it comes down to usage and design preferences. This is not a yes vs no, black vs white discussion. Some people will like it, some will not. This is not a bug (like the print header). It is about style and taste. So, while people like Volker may not like it, some like me will. I am way more productive in Notes 8 than any other mail or collabrative client (and I have Outlook 2007 and the Apple stuff going on different machines).

    I personally do not agree with Volker's approach of posting almost nothing positive about Notes 8 on his blog. I think that polarizes the readers. I do not operate my blog that way. Volker has every right to do that, but I also have the right to disagree. At no time was I trying to supress his thoughts .. just put my thoughts into the discussion.

    Volker also commented that he has used Notes 8 against a Domino 8 server. My question back should be "for how long? Did you get and receive one email?" because you can not judge a product with 5 minutes of use. If someone wants to make a style judgement, they should use it for a good amount of time … a couple days full time. If Volker has done that, great.

    I think this comes down to different approaches. I believe IBM needs to hear the good and the bad. I just have my own belief on how that feedback should be delivered. I really do believe that feedback delivered in a direct manner vs a blog has a big difference on how it is received and acted upon. At the end of the day, my goal (and job) is to make the Notes 8 experience better in the long run for myself, my company, and my customers.John Head#
  8. "I think this comes down to different approaches. I believe IBM needs to hear the good and the bad. I just have my own belief on how that feedback should be delivered. I really do believe that feedback delivered in a direct manner vs a blog has a big difference on how it is received and acted upon. At the end of the day, my goal (and job) is to make the Notes 8 experience better in the long run for myself, my company, and my customers."

    If thats the case John then what's this about John? Seems you delivered some pretty harsh criticism of IBM in public. Just trying to understand things here.Bruce Elgort#
  9. Notes has become quite a big platform and people have different ways, looking at it.
    From my possibly wrong personal perception my compatriot Volker sometimes tends a bit towards strong opinions. His points about printing email are important and I do truely hope that its going to be precious input for Lotus.
    But why compare that with Apple tooling (more in the german article linked). Or open-ending the article with mentioning that this not unimportant but limited feature does work better in Notes-8-Classic.
    Lotus simply can't re-open the Eclipse good-or-bad question. Too much money and time has been invested. Same as Eclipse itself can't re-open the swing versus swt/jface debate.
    From my profesional focus I tend more on the integration standpoint and that is promising with Expeditor. It even has become way better in Domino7 with jaxp compliant xml parser and java1.4. Of course integration capabilities isn't everything. But its neither are glitchless ui-features. Both are important aspects for happiness factor of organizations using Lotus Domino.
    Of course Eclipse as application platform does fight a software antropy and complexity battle as does the C-stuff it is going to replace. Those forces operate over ANY software. But I truely believe that it does open opportunities for being more successfull in its battle for the 5, 10 or I don't know how many years to come than without that change. And I find it rather pointless to generally question this change. For influencing its to late and for historical debate its to early. Axel#
  10. @8 - Bruce, that is called me losing my temper and breaking down. We all have bad days, and that was a very bad day. Plus, I was chatting about that with someone from IBM and their answer pissed me off … so I broke my own rules. And, to take a feather out of vowe.net's cap, it is my site so I can do what I want to there ;)John Head#
  11. Thought I'd post here so you can snag my email if needs be Ben :) I responded to your question regarding logging defeats without a support contract.

    I hope I'm not an apologist! :p I agree that IBM needs to hear the good and the bad. The thing is that IBM doesn't read everyones blog and tends to take more interest in community areas and those with support contracts when it comes to issues being reported. I think your lucky that Ed is more proactive then others. :)

    My only real issue with Volkers entries was one of them was pretty disingenuous. This is regarding an alleged IBM employee claiming the product crashed all the time yet no comment on them reporting the issues and what the issue is.

    In summary:
    Saying product sucks is ok. Not explaining why it sucks or helping to address that isn't. :)

    Simon O'Doherty#
  12. Simon, don't worry. Ben sees my comments, I see his. The magic of RSS.

    This is regarding an alleged IBM employee claiming the product crashed all the time yet no comment on them reporting the issues and what the issue is.


    Of course they are reporting the issues. How can you possibly believe they don't? One could think that Notes is dead, just for one reason: don't say anything bad about the deceased. :-)

    The thing is that IBM doesn't read everyones blog


    Very true. But Ed was actually complaining it was written on a site too many read.Volker Weber#
  13. oh I wow I really need to spell check/proof read. :)

    @Volker. The original post didn't seem to imply that the person in question was logging the information. It seemed to imply that they were being penalized for doing so. Which to my knowledge isn't true as long as the criticism is constructive.

    It may be too many people reading your blog but there is no guarantee that it would be people who could address the issues you post. Also it is normally IBM sales/support who have to deal with the flack of potential misinformed or incorrect information.



    Simon O'Doherty#
  14. Simon, and because it did not imply that, you figured they don't?

    As you see, it's not only IBM who have to deal with with potential misinformed and incorrect information. ;-)Volker Weber#

Comments on this post are now closed.

About

I’m a developer / general IT wrangler, specialising in (often mobile-friendly) web apps using things like node.js, Java, C#, PHP, HTML5, etc.

Best described as a simpleton, but kindly. Read more…